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Post by David Murray on Apr 10, 2007 14:40:45 GMT -5
I've been trying to play song #1 from Swishsynth on my Korg X50.. it has over 1,000 instruments. I've gone through the whole lot one by one and still can't find an instrument to match the bass section on Swishsynth. The melody part is easy, I've found 20+ instruments that would be excellent choices for that. I think the problem is, after thinking about it, is that the instrument on the SID has a slower attack, almost like strings. Anyway, I keep trying to find something that sounds synthetic like the SID version, but can't.
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Post by Pinacolada on Apr 10, 2007 15:29:59 GMT -5
I've tried doing stuff like that, noodling around with replicating demo music sometimes... I just don't bother replicating, and use piano or something. Lazy me.
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Post by gmoon on Apr 10, 2007 21:41:10 GMT -5
Yeah--the SID is still the SID... Why not try a softsynth, like zynaddsubfx? I've used it in Linux, and just found out there's a windows version, too (you need to go down in version #'s for windows, though.) It's excellent for 'non-analog' type sounds (use 'qsynth' for sampled sounds--Linux only.) If the presets don't do it, you should be able to modify the envelop to suit your needs. Includes a very powerful f/x chain, too. zynaddsubfx.sourceforge.net/(apparently there's a windows version VST plugin of zynaddsubfx, if you've got a decent sequencer.)
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Post by David Murray on Apr 11, 2007 11:32:35 GMT -5
Thanks Gmoon, I'll check into those.
Currently I don't have a sequencer. Do you know of a free sequencer you can recommend? I played with a few different ones a couple of months ago and couldn't figure out how to operate any of them. The last few times I've put anything together I've just recorded the analog audio from my keyboard and mixed the tracks together with Audacity.
Of course the other issue is that I currently do not have a MIDI interface. My Korg has a USB connector on the back but claims to only work with Windows XP. I run 2000 on my laptop because it is too slow for XP, and my XP computer is in the other room. So I'll have to do some tinkering there.
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Post by gmoon on Apr 11, 2007 12:44:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure about freeware MIDI on Windows--it's probably been 5-6 years since I looked into windows audio. I do have an older version of cakewalk, and an other consumer-quality sequencer too (forget the name.) But neither is installed on my current PC. At that time I was (and still am) mostly interested in multi-track audio recording, but my PC at the time couldn't record more than two tracks without drop-outs. So I went Linux instead. I wouldn't be surprised though, if there weren't a lot more free & low cost stuff now... I googled "windows sequencer" and looks to be the case... Linux, of course, is very powerful for this stuff--but there is a learning curve. You could try 'Rosegarden' or 'Muse' on a 'live' cd or DVD: www.artistx.org/www.dynebolic.org/'course, there's no way of knowing if your USB MIDI interface is supported (unless you try--can't beat the price, anyway.) I'd have a USB drive handy, it's tough figuring how to mount a drive RW in a 'Live' distro without delving pretty deep into the docs (plug in AFTER you boot.)
[edit] I know you're not looking to migrate back to Linux, but here's a list of USB MIDI that should work plug'nplay with a modern ALSA installation (certainly with the above two disks): * Korg K49 MIDI Controller * Korg X50 Musical Synthesizer * M-Audio Keystation Pro88 * Emagic MT-4 * ESI M4U/M8U * M-Audio Keystation 88 * Roland UM-1 Looks like you lucked out
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Post by David Murray on Apr 11, 2007 13:43:13 GMT -5
Actually, it is funny that you say that.. I've been seriously considering it the last few days. I stayed home from work yesterday because my daughter was sick. So to pass the time I decided, on a whim, to download "Dreamlinux" and install it on a spare PC I had. I was very pleased with what I saw. Maybe of my biggest complaints with Linux seem to have been solved.. Here are some of the things I was impressed with: - Complete GUI install, it was about as easy as installing Windows.
- No hacking to get any of my hardware working - everything worked out of the box.
- Two working media players were pre-installed and they both seem to use the video cards accelleration features, allowing full-screen anti-aliased video.. it even played Divx and DVD files right off the bat.
- Filesystem navigation as easy and integrated as with Windows. I was able to plug in a USB drive and it appeared on the desktop, when I pulled the drive out of the computer, the icon disappeared.. just like with MacOS.
- Seemless integration with my existing Windows shares. It came with "lin-neighborhood" and was able to see all my windows shares and mount them without the usual two-lines worth of command line instruction to do so.
- The web browser automatically worked with every website I tried, even those with plug-ins like Youtube, Google Maps, myspace, etc.
- Everything is configurable through the GUI.. (Although previous versions of RedHat I used to run claimed this, it never worked right.. this time it really works!)
Overall, the entire GUI seemed very polished and intuitive. I was very pleased. In fact, I found myself saying that the only thing keeping me on Windows is the ability to do video editing.. However, I noticed it came with a video editing software too.. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, though. So anyway.. If you have some suggestion for a good sequencing program for Linux which works with my Korg X50... I'll give it a shot. I'll look at those links you gave me too. Maybe I'll get lucky and I'll be able to use the Debian apt-get feature built into dreamlinux.. I was able to install VICE that way, but it left out the ROM images (probably because they aren't open source)
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Post by gmoon on Apr 11, 2007 16:26:36 GMT -5
In fact, I found myself saying that the only thing keeping me on Windows is the ability to do video editing.. However, I noticed it came with a video editing software too.. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, though. Funny--when I was trying some video editing I found a couple decent non-linear editors: * Cinelerra * Kdenlive I never did figure out Cinelerra, but Kdenlive was very intuitive. Still, it lacked stability, but it looks like an update is coming in April. Seemed like a fairly powerful editor, despite the intuitive gui. Save often, as they say.... So anyway.. If you have some suggestion for a good sequencing program for Linux which works with my Korg X50... I'll give it a shot. I'll look at those links you gave me too. Each of those is a 'live' Linux OS, but it looks like you've got that covered . One salient point: if you're planning on using it for audio recording, then a low-latency kernel is a very good thing to have. Most of the audio distros have one, several mainstream distributions give you the option of installing one. Don't know if Dreamlinux has this feature. Rosegarden & Muse, mentioned above are the sequencers. I've used both and each has it's strengths (and weaknesses, usually depending on the current version.) Linux's great strength with audio is the interconnectedness of the midi and audio streams. You're not tied to one application. When I'd record something, I'd rely on several apps simultaneously: First, make a drum track with Hydrogen, and record the MIDI output in Muse (so I can chose the drum kit later...) Record MIDI-to-audio tracks by: --Background MIDI tracks recorded/played by Muse, RAW MIDI output patched to: -- qsynth for GM patches/samples/drum patches (soundfonts) -- ZynAddSubFX for FM & 'synthetic' sounds --'Live' audio (guitar, etc.), from sound card handled by JACK with possible real-time effects added ( jackrack, etc.) the audio output of ALL of the above is patched into (realtime): -- Ardour (digital audio workstation) for recording. LADSPA audio effects can be used during recording, or added later.
What's the down side? Well, setting up all these separate programs can take some time, indeed. Additionally, the MIDI and audio patches need reconnection. There is an app 'LASH' which can restore all the MIDI & audio output/input streams. I never did use it--after recording the MIDI tracks to audio, I generally just layer audio on top, track-by-track. I should add--both Rosegarden & Muse can be used in a 'self-contained' fashion. They both have audio recording and playback ability, and each can use Linux softsynths, etc.
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Post by David Murray on Apr 11, 2007 20:26:02 GMT -5
Hey.. I tried the dynabolic live-cd... It is pretty amazing, but I'm very, very impressed with rosegarden. In fact, of all of the MIDI sequencers I've ever used (and I have used a lot over the years) I actually like this one the best. It is awesome. I was also very happy that the system just immediately detected and used my Korg X50's USB connection. That is also amazing itself. In fact, I am on the website right now with firefox still booted into the live-cd.
However.. I'm still stuck but this time it is because I can't figure out how to operate my own darned synthesizer. I used to have a Roland and it just automatically played anything sent to its MIDI port on whatever channel and whatever sample was selected. Well, my Korg isn't behaving so nicely. After much reading I discovered I had to go into a special "multi" mode and I have to configure each MIDI track.. I finally got that working, but then I discovered the Arpeggiator doesn't work in multi-mode, which is what gives a lot of the different instruments their unique and awesome sound.. Leading me to believe I may have to end up recording in the tracks in analog after all. However, I was also surprised to see Audacity on the menu. Call me naive, but I always thought that was a Windows only program. However, it looks 100% identical on the Linux version. an excellent example of a good port from one OS to another..
Anyway, your advice has been helpfull, but I still have a few stumbling blocks on my way to actually being able to sequence something.
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Post by gmoon on Apr 12, 2007 7:42:04 GMT -5
Great--you're 90% there! Yes--Rosegarden is a very capable app. I'm sure you can install it in Dreamlinux. I'm not certain I understand your MIDI issues, but they seem specific to the keybd. I thought rosegarden would have more MIDI filtering. If the Arpeggiator effect is multiple MIDI notes, try recording your playing, then route the recorded output through an external MIDI filter, which will generate other MIDI notes based on the notes played. There are some examples here on the Linux-sound page (utilities), like QMidiArp, a MIDI arpeggiator : linux-sound.org , MIDI section(You can checkout my own addition there in utilites--Ratón ) BTW, any soundcard latency issues generally will show up only if you're monitoring recording in realtime. For instance, if you're listening to the mix and applying a plugin while you record. Not something a you're likely to do with a MIDI keybd setup. Funny--I'm pretty sure Audacity started on a Linux platform. I do get the sense that most dev has moved to Windows, now. Most of the serious audio recording in Linux is done with Ardour. It's got all the mixing, realtime plugin support, crossfading, automation, etc. With the automation, everything's non-destructive (a crossfade doesn't change the faded audio clips.)
[edit] The MIDI filtering can also be applied in realtime (with or without a sequencer)--Turn off the 'direct play' feature of the keybd, route the MIDI input through a filter, then the output back to the keybd. You might not even need to turn off the keybd play--the filter doesn't need to resend the original note... Use one of the MIDI patchbays for routing...
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Post by David Murray on Apr 12, 2007 20:12:07 GMT -5
Okay.. I think I have most of the issues sorted out now. I made the following with rosegarden directly off of the Dynebolic CD. I am not quite ready to install it on my Desktop PC.. but I can't see much disadvantage to running it right from the CD.. galaxy22.dyndns.org/swish.mp3This is mostly just an experiment, I realize it sounds terribly unpolished... but I'm fairly proud of it.. not from a music standpoint, but rather that I've spent the last 2 days trying to figure out how to get to this point. Hopefully as time permits this weekend I'll start this song over completely from scratch and see what I can get. One thing I'll mention about the appregiator. I never realized it was actually creating extra note information on the MIDI output. So all I needed to do was turn it on while recording and it records all these extra notes on the sequencer. However, for some reason it still doesn't come out sounding right.. so I'm still not using it.. hopefully I'll get that figured out soon.
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Post by gmoon on Apr 12, 2007 21:47:41 GMT -5
Hey--it sounds good to me.
Pretty cool for a start. Lots more MIDI software to play with, too. Not bad for a live cd...
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Post by gmoon on Apr 13, 2007 6:40:46 GMT -5
One thing I'll mention about the appregiator. I never realized it was actually creating extra note information on the MIDI output. So all I needed to do was turn it on while recording and it records all these extra notes on the sequencer. However, for some reason it still doesn't come out sounding right.. Just a thought--most synths now have a built in F/X chain (reverb, chorus etc.), separate from the current patch setup. Maybe that's not sent via MIDI msgs...
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Post by David Murray on Apr 13, 2007 22:06:39 GMT -5
Gmoon, I've been playing this evening with ZynAddSubfx.. I have been composing in Rosegarden and using that as the synth. It is quite interesting. In fact, I've recreated the swishsynth music and it sounds almost exactly like the SID, only with stereo effects and a few extra voices. It is pretty cool. I've been learning how to edit music by hand with rosegarden. One thing I like is that you can edit music kind of like a piano roll rather than on a staff with notes. I like that because I'm not very good with notes, but when I can see the key on the keyboard I know which one it is. I only wish you could rotate it so that the keyboard spanned the screen left to right rather than up and down.
One other question. What is the easiest way to save the raw data from ZynAddSubfx? In other words if I wanted to write it directly to a file rather than record it in analog.
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Post by gmoon on Apr 14, 2007 6:42:27 GMT -5
I'm with you on the piano roll editor. Primarily I'm a guitarist, and learn mostly by ear (but I had several years of formal training on a couple other instruments so I could read--if I absolutely had to .) Interesting point about a horizontal orientation, which would align it with the keyboard. That would be a neat feature. The event editor is also handy, although just for adding/altering/removing patch change msgs. If they get embedded, you can only change patches after the sequencer starts (and they aren't persistent.) Since ZynAddSubfx is a softsysth, it's just like your Korg. It doesn't have a built-in sequencer. You can save the current setup, so anytime you feed MIDI in, you'll get the same results out (except for ALSA soundcard variables--master volume, PCM volume, etc.) But using it concurrently with the synth in the keyboard is pretty easy, if that's the goal. Analog recording (in Rosegarden or outside) works too. At some point you'll start to play with the mixer in Rosegarden, which will let you add automation to the track (changing levels, etc in mid-track--and it will remember the changes and play 'em back.) That's the advantage of leaving the note info in MIDI format. Have you played with the F/Xs (reverb, etc.) in ZynAddSubfx yet? There are several presets, so you don't need to 'tweek' much when just experimenting. Very cool stuff....
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