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Post by bungeejmp on Oct 1, 2005 19:33:47 GMT -5
Okay. I'm a little disappointed, but not completely discouraged. My project was to use a C64 emulator on the Amiga to access Q-Link.
My system: A2000, 50MHz 68060, 128MB, Spectrum graphics card. Genesis TCP/IP stack, Ariadne II network card.
Software: Frodo v4.1, MagiC64, and some other program more recent than the A64 Package.
First, I'll say that I'm horribly disappointed that a little chip can emulate a full C64 computer and peripherals at full speed while a nicely upgraded Amiga cannot. Sure, I'm probably going to have to go PPC for this, but blah.
Frodo v4.1 was the best package, but it lacked some minor requirements:
1) Ability to open its own screen rather than a window on a public screen 2) Ability to use a serial.device-alike in lieu of the Kernel serial routines. Even an emulation of a 6551 cart would be acceptable. This would allow the use of telser.device, which is similar in function on the Amiga to Jim Brain's tcpser utility, as a serial.device replacement.
Frodo is the only Amiga C64 emulator to correctly and fully implement a full 1541 drive system. Even so, it doesn't appear to support Q-Link's customer loader. All-in-all, the system is horribly slow, checking in at only 23% system speed.
My thoughts on this:
The Frodo author appears open to suggestions. I would at least like to suggest implementation of native serial driver usage. Being that most advanced Amiga users are Internet-capable these days, I may even suggest that he integrate tcpser.device functionality.
Also, there have been a number of Q-Link disk hack/mods pop up or become available again recently. If any one of those bypasses the customer loader to allow a ROM-based fast loader to work (such as JiffyDOS, WarpSpeed, etc.) then we can forgo the need for full 1541 emulation.
Let's not forget that we'd like Frodo to open on a custom screen (SPECTRUM: 320x240 8-bit, for instance.) I deleted it already, but I think that v2.x actually did that. What happened?
Speed? Well, maybe without the real 1541 emulation I can pull 50% system speed on this machine. Maybe on a better system, like my A1200 under BlazeWCP or Amiga 4000 with the Picasso IV (Zorro III video,) I can eek out a little better performance.
In the end, it does appear that if I want to stay Amiga for this project I will need to go PPC. And that ain't cheap these days. Better just to buy an AmigaOne system with OS4. Aside from the hardware, the emulation software would need some major tweaking as well to meet our requirements.
Oh, well. Working on pulling out a real Commodore system, but it's slow going. Still trying to unpack and set up the Relic Room at the same time.
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Post by madcrow on Oct 4, 2005 7:43:53 GMT -5
Hmm... Don't forget, the protocol information is known so if you could get it, you could write an Amiga client just like should have happened back in the late 80s...
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Post by Golan Klinger on Oct 4, 2005 13:50:06 GMT -5
Hmm... Don't forget, the protocol information is known so if you could get it, you could write an Amiga client just like should have happened back in the late 80s... I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I think it's an interesting idea and it would be handy to have clients for various operating systems (sort of like a Q-Link equivalant of CGTerm) but since it would no longer be a 64-only experience like it originally was, it sort of dilutes the cachet. Does that make sense? In a way, it just becomes another online service and I can't help but wonder what the appeal would be...
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MikeAZ1
Full Member
Qlinker of the 80's
Posts: 157
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Post by MikeAZ1 on Oct 4, 2005 16:57:57 GMT -5
Theres got to be a happy medium between adding todays features to the service We loved back then.
There have been a lot of good suggestions But I agree Golan, I like Qlink Being either Todays Tech: Vice and using Past Tech: With real 64/128 Thats what gave Qlink its charm now a 128 Client I think would stick to that principal I wish I had the programming knowledge to do it.
Put too much in like Internet email and IRC or Telneting etc well as Golan said it just becomes another online service or site.
Add some new goodies but keep it commodore only accessible Vice or Real. Thats Qlink of Yesterday and Today
just an opinion
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Post by Jeff Ledger on Oct 4, 2005 20:07:46 GMT -5
Acutally, I was already thinking this when we were first considering the use of VICE to connect. Personally, I think there is a lot to be gained in the experience for those who take the time to build a interface to connect from a real 64.
Jeff
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Post by bungeejmp on Oct 4, 2005 21:10:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not interested in writing a QLink client other than possibly for personal satisfaction, but very very miniscule chances of that happening.
I like to think that the combination of old and new tech tends to enhance the original technology. Look at CF Flash cards, IDE interfaces, SIMM-based RAM expansions, RRnet, etc., etc.
As QLink was concerned, it most certainly WAS a C64 service, and emulating a C64 isn't so far stepping off the original train. A 128 client is pushing it, mostly because you'll probably still be trying to meet the confines of the 64 client to begin with.
Adding new features to the old QLink may be abhorrent, but at the same time very intriquing, and can open possibilities for other projects... it feeds imagination.
For instance, integrating RSS feeds to fill the news sections.... that's a very cool idea (and not just because I thought of it, too.) Integrating with IRC... well, that takes away from the original realism.
I like the idea of an Internet email gateway in limited form, but even that kinda eeks out of the original scope. Though, at the same time it could bring more attention to the project, and possibly more people.
I think that if people are going to start to mod/hack Q again, there should definitely be set into place certain confinements and restrictions. Quite honestly, Jim is the Brain behind this (errr, sorry) so those should be up to him. Maybe we'll watch this thing grow to be bigger than what Jim had originally borne, and maybe the interest will die off in a year.
I have my own ideas and suggestions, but the basic thing I think we should stick to is client modifications should exist within the confines of the original technology. That is, the client was C64, and any hacks and mods should be limited to what the C64 could do, or had the technological potential to do and NOT exclude ANYONE with a stock machine.
On the server side, well, if it will integrate with the client, what the h***.
I don't think clients native to other platforms (Amiga, Mac, Apple, TI, PC, etc.) should be acceptable for mainstream QLink use.
I can't articulate my thought clearly enough in this post to be quote-worthy, but I would be happy to sit on an advisory panel if ever the need arose.
( <- appoints himself chair... heheheh )
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Post by Golan Klinger on Oct 4, 2005 21:16:01 GMT -5
I think a native 128 client would be fantastic and it certainly is in keeping with the original Q-Link. That being said, the more I think about a PC client, the less I like the idea. Forcing a Windows or Mac OS X user who wants to try Q-Link to see a 64 boot screen is a good way to spark/rekindle their interest in all things Commodore. As long as they've got VICE installed, why not play a game or do a little old-school programming. Perhaps they'll break out their old Commodore gear or pick some up on eBay and start participating in the community at large. That's what excites me.
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Post by Golan Klinger on Oct 4, 2005 21:43:09 GMT -5
That is, the client was C64, and any hacks and mods should be limited to what the C64 could do, or had the technological potential to do and NOT exclude ANYONE with a stock machine. It's interesting that you should bring this up. Another thread on these message boards got me thinking that if someone got Q-Link working on a C64DTV there would inevitably be a discussion about bumping up the graphics to support the 256 colour mode. I don't know, that might be fun. Imagine Q-Link as the jumping off point for the various 8-bit communities with seperate sections (chat rooms, file repositories etc.) as well as a 'free for all' general 8-bit section. Once everyone was finished making fun of the other's computer choices there would a really cool and unique online service.
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Post by bungeejmp on Oct 4, 2005 23:29:41 GMT -5
Forcing a Windows or Mac OS X user who wants to try Q-Link to see a 64 boot screen is a good way to spark/rekindle their interest in all things Commodore. As long as they've got VICE installed, why not play a game or do a little old-school programming. Perhaps they'll break out their old Commodore gear or pick some up on eBay and start participating in the community at large. That's what excites me. Amen, brother!
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Post by bungeejmp on Oct 4, 2005 23:34:58 GMT -5
It's interesting that you should bring this up. Another thread on these message boards got me thinking that if someone got Q-Link working on a C64DTV there would inevitably be a discussion about bumping up the graphics to support the 256 colour mode. I guess so long as it would still interact with a stock 64, that wouldn't exclude a stock user. Though, I lack the imagination at this hour to see what good the 256 color screen would do, other than offer a better looking UI, maybe a backdrop, or the ability to send/receive GIF images (like SuperQ did with SIDs.) When using SuperQ to play SIDs to a room, if the client was not SuperQ, it did not receive the SID. The same could happen with a DTVQ. Again, just don't exclude stock users from interaction. When you do that, you just splinter the user base.
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Post by Samuel Kielek on Oct 7, 2005 15:04:48 GMT -5
I definitely like the idea of a C128 Q-Link client. Of course, only an 80 col. mode client would be necessary. It would definitely make ppl conn. a more enjoyable experience. I'm also warm to the idea of a Java client for People Connection. I actually dont think this would be too hard to do. In fact, perhaps in the beginning we could still require that an account is created using the traditional method. This would ensure that we are not creating just another chat service and flooding the lobbies with people. We could add an option in the Customer Service area to enable Java client access for an account, at which point it will ask you for a password that it will use to authenticate you when using the Java client. Not sure what the state of Java on the Amiga is, but this should make it possible to connect from "most" platforms. And I would probably be connected far more often. No, I'm not installing VICE at work.. I'd like to see this project as being a resurrection of QLink. Which means it is alive again from the dead, so one would expect it to continue living and growing. Otherwise, it's not really alive, it's more like the living dead! -cygnus
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