|
Post by Espen Skog on May 28, 2008 13:19:11 GMT -5
Just wondering, now that DTVs are out of production, would it be possible to read out all the information in the chips on the DTV and program it back into a similar or preferably better chip so that we can re-use and maybe re-develop what is already inside the DTV in order to get a more developered DTV edition ? E.g. one which is more compatible and has all the IO pins like the expansion port on a real c64.
I am just throwing out an idea here. It would be very cool if one could develop a PCB which had a socket for a faster+better atmel chip and put some memory and flashram on the pcb and add all necessaery electronic-components so that the whole design eventually became a "new" DTV which was even more cool than the DTV already is today :-)
Is the code inside the atmel chip possible to extract at all ? And with code I mean the programming lines done my the developer of the DTV.
Espen
|
|
|
Post by David Murray on May 28, 2008 14:26:13 GMT -5
I think we've been down this road before. I think it is virtually impossible to do. Even if it were possible, one problem I found is that the FPGA chips and equipment is very expensive. One of the lures of the DTV was that the whole project was inexpensive. But if it costs $200 to $300 then not many people will be interested (example: see the Commodore One)
The really depressing part is that there were potentially thousands and thousands of unused DTV chips sitting around somewhere, but will likely never be sold.
It is really unfortunate, in my opinion, that neither side of the legal battle ever gave in. For the sake of the C64 community in general.
|
|
|
Post by schism on May 28, 2008 15:33:13 GMT -5
It sucks but it's not realy suprising. most people are in it for the money not for the users anymore
|
|
|
Post by robertb on May 28, 2008 17:31:34 GMT -5
IIt is really unfortunate, in my opinion, that neither side of the legal battle ever gave in. For the sake of the C64 community in general. Are you saying that Jeri should have forgotten about the tens of thousands of dollars owed her (let bygones be bygones?) and continued to work for them? Truly, Robert Bernardo Fresno Commodore User Group CommVEx v4 website - www.portcommodore.com/commvex
|
|
|
Post by 1570 on May 28, 2008 17:53:55 GMT -5
Just wondering, now that DTVs are out of production, would it be possible to read out all the information in the chips on the DTV and program it back into a similar or preferably better chip so that we can re-use and maybe re-develop what is already inside the DTV in order to get a more developered DTV edition ? E.g. one which is more compatible and has all the IO pins like the expansion port on a real c64. There's no practical way to read out an ASIC. Also, if all you want is a more compatible C64 core, there exist a number of open source FPGA cores already (most notable Syntiac's FPGA-64). No need to look at the DTV then.
|
|
|
Post by schism on May 28, 2008 18:42:24 GMT -5
Not Jerri the toy:lobster company or whoever owns the rights to it. They produce and forget the end user.
|
|
|
Post by David Murray on May 28, 2008 20:37:18 GMT -5
Are you saying that Jeri should have forgotten about the tens of thousands of dollars owed her (let bygones be bygones?) and continued to work for them? Well, sort of. After all, it is obvious there will never be anymore made otherwise. So she isn't going to get any more money from the DTV one way or another. So unless there is some future plan for production, she might as well make the chip available or work out a new deal with toy:lobster or some other company and forget the past. I'm sure that is hard to do with somebody has cheated you, however, when considering the cold hard facts, you might as well look at the big picture. "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."
|
|
|
Post by robertb on May 29, 2008 2:03:52 GMT -5
So unless there is some future plan for production, she might as well make the chip available... Err, she does not own the DTV ASIC chip. ... or work out a new deal with toy:lobster... Toy: Lobster is a distribution company; it is not into manufacturing. ... or some other company... The infrastructure of those companies which produced the DTV has already been partially disbanded. See my interview, Commodore Free magazine #19. Very impractical. I repeat... she is owned tens of thousands of dollars. She didn't forget; she sued but unfortunately got nowhere. If I were owed that much, I wouldn't forget. Would you? I'm sure that is hard to do with somebody has cheated you... You are right. however, when considering the cold hard facts, you might as well look at the big picture. The "big picture" is that those companies cheated her, and thus, due to their greed, they killed whatever chance there was of continuing the DTV and improving on it. "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." Ah, Star Trek II. But here is Star Trek III, "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many." Truly, Robert Bernardo Fresno Commodore User Group CommVEx v4 website - www.portcommodore.com/commvex
|
|
|
Post by David Murray on May 30, 2008 9:28:19 GMT -5
Then I am a bit confused on why she is owed money in the first place. I thought they were paying her like a license fee for each chip used. What does she own then?
|
|
|
Post by robertb on May 31, 2008 2:10:37 GMT -5
Then I am a bit confused on why she is owed money in the first place. I thought they were paying her like a license fee for each chip used. From Commodore Free magazine, issue 19, p. 20, I said, "They refused to pay Jeri her royalty per DTV joystick..." For more insight, please read the rest of the article. She owns her C64 core modified for use in the DTV. Recall that many, many months ago in a different thread, I said that Jeri tried to buy thousands of the DTV ASIC chips so that those chips could be distributed to the public. She was denied. Truly, Robert Bernardo Fresno Commodore User Group CommVEx v4 website - www.portcommodore.com/commvex
|
|
|
Post by Espen Skog on May 31, 2008 5:46:44 GMT -5
Just wondering, now that DTVs are out of production, would it be possible to read out all the information in the chips on the DTV and program it back into a similar or preferably better chip so that we can re-use and maybe re-develop what is already inside the DTV in order to get a more developered DTV edition ? E.g. one which is more compatible and has all the IO pins like the expansion port on a real c64. There's no practical way to read out an ASIC. Also, if all you want is a more compatible C64 core, there exist a number of open source FPGA cores already (most notable Syntiac's FPGA-64). No need to look at the DTV then. Interesting. I did not know that. What I am looking for is a way to have a C64 in a FPGA which is "just" a c64 (and not so much other stuff which c-one also is). I want a small pcb foorprint for mounting in a small box and I want it to be as compatible and "plain" as possible but with the option to hook up cartridges and other c64 IO HW. Basically, I want a C64 with VGA out (or -svideo) and ps/2 kbd which is small and pretty :-)
|
|
|
Post by robarino on Jun 3, 2008 2:32:05 GMT -5
Not Jerri the toy:lobster company or whoever owns the rights to it. They produce and forget the end user. Try to be realistic. As originally designed, the DTV is a cheap $20~$30 toy that runs on batteries and plugs into your TV to play old C64 games. How much end-user support is actually needed from the Toy company? Seriously, what else are you expecting them to do for end-users?
|
|
|
Post by schism on Jun 3, 2008 6:11:20 GMT -5
Simple supply and demand. Hackers will spend more money than most people because they have it and enjoy expensive hobbies and how many company don't want to seperate you from your extra coin. They could have expanded it into a "cottage industry" for people such as come here as well as opened up to developing contries and think of the profits there. Even if you don;t look at us they are missing some huge profit oppertunities.
|
|
|
Post by David Murray on Jun 3, 2008 8:07:31 GMT -5
Recall that many, many months ago in a different thread, I said that Jeri tried to buy thousands of the DTV ASIC chips so that those chips could be distributed to the public. She was denied. Actually, No.. I don't recall. Robert, you should try to realize sometimes that most of us on this board do not eat, breath, and dream commodore 24/7. I do not read every post on every forum in the world. However, I am still confused on this. You say that she tried to buy these chips. You say she owns the core. I'm a bit confused. Is this analagous to saying somebody owns the license to some ROM code (for example... pac-man) and somebody else owns a bunch of cartridges that happen to have pacman inside? Even still. I'm not understanding why she is unable to produce and sell DTV chips since she owns the core. I'm still missing some piece of this puzzle.
|
|
|
Post by gmoon on Jun 3, 2008 11:11:13 GMT -5
However, I am still confused on this. You say that she tried to buy these chips. You say she owns the core. I'm a bit confused. Is this analagous to saying somebody owns the license to some ROM code (for example... pac-man) and somebody else owns a bunch of cartridges that happen to have pacman inside? Even still. I'm not understanding why she is unable to produce and sell DTV chips since she owns the core. I'm still missing some piece of this puzzle. David-- I wouldn't presume to speak for Jeri (or for Robert), but the DTV is based on fpga code Jeri developed. The code running the DTV would, of course, be modified and owned by ?? (the consortium that produced the hardware, probably-- or their shell companies.) While created in partnership, she wouldn't own the DTV code. Like a GM H3 is based on a military Hummer. No intelligent gaming hardware company would build a device unless they had clear title to everything contained. After all, what if it's a big "hit?" They'd want unrestricted rights to create as many, as quickly as possible. If you'd like a copy of her C-64 core, just buy a C-ONE. That's the original source of the DTV core... Surely you don't expect her to release everything for free? Not when she has an existing product (competing with herself) AND might also open herself up to being sued by the other primaries in the DTV fiasco.
|
|